Meet Matt: The New CEO of Grace Hill

Matt, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It's great to have you here. So for the audience who doesn't maybe know who you are And this is largely a multifamily audience, but ultimately, this will be played probably a little bit of everywhere, maybe on Grace Hill's YouTube page or wherever it may be. Tell us a little bit about yourself. So tell us who you are, what you do, and and who you do it for. So I'm the new CEO at Grace Hill. Have been since June first of this year. So Okay. Right. Just allow for makes it seventeen days that I've been doing this. Background, you know, thirty plus years in the enterprise software space. Probably the last half of it in private equity backed real estate, commercial real estate, multifamily, residential real estate, etcetera. So So so little bit like coming home. Industry adjacent. Industry adjacent. I speak the language. Yeah. Multifamily is kind of its own beast. It is. So the team has been very kind in dealing with my ignorance where it where it hits them. But, yeah, industry adjacent. Well, that's awesome. Well, congratulations. Welcome to Officially Multifamily. Sounds like you've been in all aspects of real estate and potentially the financial sector, maybe even technological Yep. Technology sector as well. So so welcome. Thanks for being on the show as well. We're excited to talk with you a little bit. Walk us through so tell us your background a little bit. Where where are you from? Where'd you study? Some of those things. Oh, god. More detail than you want. I grew up in Northern Michigan. So Midwest kid, born and bred. Went to school down in the South. Are you a Wolverine guy? No. Oh. Come on, man. Come on. Get out of here. No. I have family that are Spartans through and through. Oh, okay. So you like, you gotta step off the Be careful there. Yeah. I am as a Michigander and as a natural born diplomat, I'm happy for the Wolverines and their recent success on the basketball court. It's very political answers. Nice nice work. No. Went down to school down in North Carolina at Duke. Met my wife there. We both came back to the Midwest. She's an attorney. Very, very much the brains of the operation. Yeah. She got a job in Chicago and I'm not a fool. So I followed her. That's right. We've been there since ninety seven. Okay. Did a short little stint over in California. You mentioned that. Yeah. Yep. Moved back and had basically been in the in the same block since two thousand two. Yeah. So tell us about California. So you moved to the Bay Area. Moved to the Bay Area. Was was this at the tech boom when that was happening? What were you doing? Lightly before that. Okay. So slightly before sort of in two thousand five to two thousand eight or two thousand nine. I was working for SAP, office of the CFO, had a big fancy job, fancy title, all that kind of wonderful stuff. So far out over the tips of my skis from a skill standpoint. Had no idea what I was doing. Young Turk in the software business. Awful to look back on now. Yeah. We lived out there. I kinda did the stamped passport with California thing for three years, I guess. And then moved back just before I signed a contract for a new employer a week before Bear Stearns went under. So my timing was chef's kiss emoji. Just like you planned it. Right? Oh my god. You got so lucky. So we're, you know, we're gonna talk about, you know, obviously technology, AI, all the things that are happening today and and obviously your your future perspective of where it's going. But at that time, you're in the Bay Area, you know, the the tech hub of of the world, the Mecca, if you will. Yep. What was happening during that time? Obviously, it was kinda leading up to the potential, you know, large financial crisis that happened in o eight that you referred That was like, that was the interesting thing that I think has probably stuck with me more than anything else. So, you know Other than the trips to Napa and other Not nearly as many of those with a five year old and a three year old as you would expect. You know, from technology standpoint, it was in this weird kind of interim period. You kind of come out of the dot com boom. And you're coming out of the bus, right? The ninety nine So you started off ninety nine, you kind of came into the early two thousands, two thousand one, bottom falls out, everybody has this huge reckoning. You start to kinda build back And there's this weird period where best of sweet, best of like that was the big thing. And it was kinda silly. So from a technology perspective, was kind of this fallop period. The part that really stuck with You think was predicated based on the the crash that was and you know, trying to find some equilibrium? I think dollars shifted. I I think there was a crash that was and then I think dollars shifted. And so what you saw back then at that point was Google was sucking capital out of the market. Facebook was just getting going Second capital in the market. This was pre iPhone. That was gonna suck capital out of the market. And so the space that I operated in Just wasn't sexy. It just wasn't sexy at that point. But what you did see is we were very very close to businesses. And in my world, I think what you saw was a lot of head in the sand. Let's pretend this thing isn't gonna fall apart. When we kind of all knew it was gonna fall apart. And then and so that I'm thinking like fall of two thousand seven, middle of two thousand seven, end of two thousand seven. The everything falls apart. I leave. Bear Stearns goes on to like everybody just felt there was bubble but nobody wanted to talk about it. So how did you navigate, you know, kind of through I quit. That crisis. Yeah? I quit my job. You know, I was thirty four, thirty five, something like that. I was a baby. And That's a that's a young executive. Oh, yeah. We had two young kids. But don't tell that executive. That that executive knew exactly what was what I was doing. The I have a twenty four year old now, we'll just say that it was age appropriate behavior is the phrase that I'm learning very Thank you. We had two young kids. We knew we wanted to get back to the Midwest. Was that because of family and culture? All family. All family. Like, you know, my parents, my wife's parents, everybody was from the Midwest and so we knew we wanted to get back home. And so I ended up quitting my job in June. My wife quit her job two weeks later. We had nothing. I was just saying with with another job lined up? Nope. Nothing. Just real kids And drove back cross country. Wow. That's a big deal. It was yeah. It was gut wrenching in a good way. In a good way. So we did that and then I started a new job, like I said, a week before Birstream's another. Making that decision, you know, a lot of people listening, you know, quitting your job, taking the kids, packing them up, going back home. It can't be an easy decision to make. Obviously, a a very successful professional at the time. She probably was as well, maybe more professional or or more successful, shall I say? She's on partner track at one of the biggest law firms in the world. And so it it was driven by family, it sounds like, just to get back. And you guys, I assume, had the confidence to say, listen, we'll land on our feet. We'll figure it out. Yeah. And I think that has been it. It's kind of like, I think there's a confidence in wouldn't yeah. There's confidence in your ability. There's confidence you're gonna land on your feet. There's confidence that somebody somewhere is gonna take a flyer on you. And I think there's a belief of understanding what is important and what we what you really value. If all this other stuff goes belly up, we'll be alright. Yeah. Like, we'll be alright. Yeah. Because it sounds like you guys had your values in order and it sounds like For us? Yeah. Like that doesn't mean they're everybody else's. Sure. But you guys. Us, I think they were pretty clear. Well, that's an exciting story. So so you moved back to the Midwest. And and talk us through kind of where that career goes from there. So I got a job running a big p and l for a consulting company. One of the few times in my life where I was just objectively awful At the job. And it's hated it too. So that worked out really well. I That's an interesting place to be. Yeah. Was Coming out of a hopeful optimism of moving back home. Well, it was one of those where I I I actually very proactively took this job Because I had not done a lot of it in my past. I had always been a software guy. Yep. I had this kind of gap I felt In my resume or background where I didn't understand consulting operations. Wanted to kind of fill it. You wanted an opportunity. Yeah. Got into it and I was like, well, this sucks. Like every aspect of this sucks. I don't know a lot but I know I don't wanna do this. Yeah. That's that was basically it. And I was like, you people are dumb. I hate everything. It was awful. And again, I will remind you, thirty five, thirty six Sure. Thirty seven, something like that. I'm tracking the story. Okay. Good. I don't have to explain too much. Left that and then I got a call from a recruiter about a private equity backed real estate tech company. And so I went and joined that. It would have been like December of o nine. Okay. First time like in the big chair, not as CEO but as like the head of sales and marketing Real estate tech. High pressure high pressure role? High very high pressure role. Lot of like the company is headquartered in Milwaukee. So I was driving from Chicago to Milwaukee all the time. We had just had our third How long is that? How long is that kid? Oh, it's ended two hours probably. Two hours. One way? One way. So I had an apartment up there. Yeah. Another one of those kind of Notable sacrifice. You got three kids. Yep. Did just had one was a baby. A baby at home. So, yeah. Did that for two what is it? Two thousand nine? Three years, I guess. No. Two years, we sold that to a large Canadian Tech, like property tech Consortium basically. I stuck around and it was a blast. Like I learned a ton, very much got out of the sales marketing world, of into But did was that your first dabble into real estate? First dabble into real estate and first dabble into private equity. Okay. So it was It sounded like it was a blast. It was off to the races at that point. Tough fun. Ton of fun. Like What what was fun about it? It played to the things that I really intellectually enjoyed And also to kind of my inveterate addictive nature. The Okay. I get heavily involved in corp dev. So buying and selling companies and thinking about huge swings on the revenue line and huge swings on synergies. And it was just, man, like shoot that right into my veins. It was a blast. Wow. Learned how to do all of that, spent four or five years doing that, ended up like the last one I did was like a billion dollar acquisition. And it was just like it was like I more. More. Need more. Yeah. Need more. And then I got an opportunity for my first CEO job. Yeah. And I was like, a hundred percent. Yeah. Like, more of this place. Right. And so I started doing that in fourteen. Okay. Two thousand fourteen. So it sounds like you've been in the season c suite for quite a while now. Yeah. Probably the last fifteen years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so talk to us a little bit about obviously, you're new at Grace Hill. What what what got you excited about this opportunity? And let's talk a little bit about kind of like the vision and the future that you see with the platform itself. So the first thing that got me excited about it, we we had sold my previous company last year. And I had Was this a company you started? Well, I didn't really start it but part. In two thousand this would have been in two thousand twenty I ended up joining kind of a a thing that was coming together from a bunch of different internal divisions of other things. Turned that into a company. We sold that last year. I had met during the process a group called Aurora Capital Who is the investor in Grace Hill. They're the primary investor in Grace Hill. So my first attraction was, these are super smart people. They think about the world the way that I do. It is not necessarily a popular way to think about software companies in the year of our Lord twenty twenty six. And so that was like the first attraction. Can can you help us understand how they how you look at it or how they were looking at it that might be Yeah. So when I talked to them a year ago and it has been coming through ever since, are and I am very focused on solid business fundamentals, like the underlying financial fundamentals. People in my job, people that are invested in companies will look at all sorts of made up metrics. Adjusted management, adjusted EBITDA. Shiny object. Shiny object, I'm gonna chase this. It's a different version Of eyeballs and clicks From ninety nine and two thousand. What Aurora cares about and what I actually care about which has not always made me a super popular, again, executive is how much money are we making? Like what is our actual unadjusted free cash flow? I have money that comes in the front door. I have money that goes out the back door. How much am I left with? And how do we run a business that is capital efficient around those things? Me that is just the super exciting part is you can play with all sorts of different leverage against that. But at the end of the day, you're either left with money in the house or you're not. Right. So that was the first attraction. Second attraction was I am very strident, I guess, in my belief that this particular vertical is incredibly attractive from a technology perspective. One, it is massive. It's massive. It's it's huge. It's hard to explain to a civilian. I think most don't realize how big it is. How big it is, how central it is, how important it is to the economy. Like, it's just massive and it's the center of everything. I mean, it's a huge industry from an employment standpoint but it houses, you know A roof over your home. Right. Right? There are very few things an individual action actually needs. A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and dough. Right? Like It has been true forever that I need a roof over my head. Right. That's it. So that was very, very attractive. And it also it actually does well during economic downturns as It's countercyclical. Yeah. Right? It's counter because it's incredibly stable. And it's so tied to the bond market, it kind of moves Right. In those countercyclical ways. So very attractive from an from a just an economics standpoint. From a technology standpoint, it is really attractive because it is the largest niche market you're ever going to find. Right? It is a it is a contained ecosystem. Right? It's not this huge horizontal That where all of a sudden I've got a competitor that pops up out of Myanmar and I'm like Who's this? Who the hell are these guys? Right? Right. It's a contained ecosystem. Grace Hill was incredibly attractive for a couple other reasons. And again, this is before I met anybody. The brand has resonance. That can cut both ways but the brand has resonance. Sure. That's a good place to start Yeah. You don't have to build it from nothing. I don't have to build it from nothing. I don't have to go out and say, hey, how are you? Grace Hill, here's People know it. Right? So that's a good one. Second one is, if you think about the world that we are operating in today AI is coming for everybody. I have an odd feeling we might talk about that later. Right? So I have spent a lot of time trying to think about like what are defensible positions. More importantly, what are offensive positions? Where can you actually add value in this space? And data stores that have propriety That have history, that have trend lines, that have efficacy in the market that you're working in Are incredibly attractive. Incredibly attractive. And so you look at Grace Hill and it is in a wildly unique position In that. Forty years of the Kingsley Index Right? That's out there. That is incredibly unique. Yeah. So you have that and then you have this world where I don't know the again, is before I met anybody. Sure. I don't really know the team. But from what I can tell on the surface, they seem to be the type of people that I would like to work with. Like I've been incredibly lucky. Yeah. Like incredibly lucky. Which gives me the flexibility to work with people that I actually want to spend time with. Yeah. And having been in Multifamily for much of my career, yeah. I mean, I think you're stepping into a well known rep well respected brand as you articulated earlier. And then ultimately, the culture is well established with great people, good character people and it sounds like that well aligned It is. You're looking for. A hundred percent. And it is like the part that I really like about it is, you know, cultures are those things where it it's what happens when nobody else is in the room. Right. That's what your culture is. Yeah. It's not a it's not a mission statement on a website. No. It's it's genuinely how do we make decisions. Nobody's looking over my shoulder, how are we going to behave? Right. And this is a moral group of people. It's an ethical group of people. It's people that enjoy each other. They enjoy each other's company. And and I would say just being a long time multifamily guy is that I think that's predicated on and and that's really kind of what also the brand representation is as well. It's that this company is incredibly trustworthy. They have great people and we wanna do business with them. Very much. For you, I think that because you would imagine coming in, you're like, hey, listen, we don't have to build all that. We already have that. Yep. How can we start leveraging some new technologies to move forward in the future? So let's talk about those new technologies There you go. In the future. Obviously, with your background, we touched on it briefly. AI is consuming all conversation in virtually every industry including multifamily. Yep. How do you see automation, pattern recognition, AI, know, for the future, we'll say, of multifamily through your lens Yeah. Based on your experience. And and how is Grace Hill sort of looking at it? Obviously, through your lens, I would imagine as well. And and how how are those two realities kinda coming together, the industry and Grace Hill? It's a very interesting time To like be having these conversations. And it's very interesting Interesting time to be alive. It is. And it's an interesting time again to be like with the gray and the beard and having seen a couple of these cycles before. This like this is earth shattering technology. It is earth shattering, game changing technology. Yeah. A lot of people say it's, you know, in this business I've heard, you know, it's a trend. It's not a trend. It's it's it's transformative. This is a trend the same way that the Internet. Right. It was a trend the same way that the microprocessor It's never going back. Was a trend. Now, these are one of those before and after moments. But the part that I think that people forget Is that it is a technology. And it is a technology that is in service of people's actual problems. Right? And so where I see people fall into I what I think are mistakes Personal opinion. The same thing that same mistakes people fell into. Usually, the mistakes of the messaging or usage of the technology. Yes. Like, yes. Or their interpretation of what the technology can do Or how it should be used. Or what it can't do or limitations to it because it's Or it's limitations where people I think have misperceptions of the same ones that they had with The Internet. The Internet and microprocessors, etcetera, which is Industrial revolution. We get incredibly enamored with the how are we going to solve And we lose sight of the what are we actually trying to solve. Right? My customers my customers' customers, nobody is gonna give us a premium or credit for or a discount because we're using AI. They want a roof over their head. Right. They wanna understand how they can make and improve their net operating income. They wanna improve their employee experience. Those are the whats. Those are the whats. And so what you see people on my end doing is saying AI. Right. This how we AI. You know. And if I'm a customer, I'm like, I don't I don't care. I don't care how how you're using it. This is what it means to me. Build an army of individuals for all I care. Right. Solve the problem. Solve the what. And so you talk about like how is Grace Hill operating? I think if we do a good job We will stay focused on the what. And then the how becomes an execution in efficiency, capital deployment. How to use the tool itself. How to accomplish the tool most effectively, understand that the tool is earth shattering and game changing and affects everything we do in every way. As long as we stay focused on what are we actually trying to solve and who are we trying to solve it for and what are the unique things that we could bring to the table to solve those problems today. As long as we stay focused on that, the what's gonna be fine. So tell us. So leaders listening to you, maybe sort of junior executives that are admiring you from afar and saying, you know They're silly, silly people. Silly people, Tom. So so they're looking at you and saying, hey, Matt, you know, like, you know, how are you gonna go about doing this? Because it it ultimately I don't wanna say it's a culture change but it's a culture evolution, right, within organizations. I I'd love to learn, you know, from your seasoned, you know, leadership That was welcome. That was very welcome. To understand like how are you approaching that? Because I to be honest, I think, not just multifamily companies but I think almost every Every company. And executive Every industry. They're looking to their leaders to say, how are you going to, you know, embrace this new technology but also help transform our organization in a way that gets a collective buy in Yeah. So that we can move forward and solve the problems of the future. Yeah. I think know it's It's all gonna sound incredibly cliche. Okay? But there things are cliches for reasons. Right? They have resonance. The first thing that I'm trying to do right now that I'm failing miserably is like just spend some time listening to people And not try to jump in and pretend that I've got answers and try to solve everything. Yeah. I am dying. Like I am a creature of forward motion. Ideas, innovation I could just experience. Like, let's go, let's go, let's go. We'll fix it later. We'll fix it later. We'll fix it later. But this is a really unique opportunity For me to come in and just talk to some incredibly smart people and just hear what they have to say. That's one. So let's just assume that that cliche has been accomplished. I think the other thing is to to make sure that we stay focused on a small number of things Executed really well Very quickly. Not try to dabble In this and that. In everything Right. To solve every problem, to solve for every situation. I I am a firm believer that the employees pay me because like if they weren't paying me, that money would go into their pockets. The investors are paying me. They're paying me to take a position and make a bet. If I'm wrong, I pay the consequences for it. Sure. That's right, heavy as the head. Right? But let's make a bet and go. And if we're wrong, we fix it and go. We fix it and go. And so I think that is really one of the things that we can work on as an organization especially especially right now with this kind of technology landscape is speed of decision making needs to and that is not a Grace Hill condemnation. It's not a Grace Hill that is a business in twenty twenty it's now it's now at at rapid pace with this type of technology. Right? And it's moving so Everything is moving so much faster. You and I both know and, you know, we have friends in this technology space and even AI experts are struggling to keep up with the ever changing capabilities Every couple months. Technology. And so You are obsolete every couple months. Yeah. So so how do you how do you I'm excited to hear, like, how do you create an organization or a structure to keep up with that level of speed? I'm sure you've done it in the past, but the the level of speed seems to be increasing faster and faster. I think there's a couple things to it. Right? So one is making sure that the members of the team recognize and understand that they are actually that. They are members of a team. Has their responsibility, everybody has their accountability, but we are members of a team. Stay in your lane and focus on what you do best. And make sure that you understand how your lane affects this person's lane. How that affects her lane. Think of it more comprehensively. Right. Exactly. So let's we understand that we are part of a team And we're operating that way. Understand and the and these are my job, right? This is my job is to kind of set the the structures and the accountabilities to that. Understand that you get paid as an executive For your opinion, fact based, data based. Hopefully. You get Fact based and data based. You get paid to take a position based on your opinion. Right? This or that Right. Will get you out the door very quickly. You get paid to deal with the consequences Of making that. Good or bad. Good or bad. Right? Good or bad. And bad, by the way, doesn't mean you get fired. Bad means we have a a tough conversation, we learn from it. And the organization is going to support you if you do those things and you make a mistake The organization is going to support you. Well, and I sense the culture even obviously at the highest level. Right? Shareholders or, you know, whoever you may, you know, board of directors whom you may be reporting to understand the speed in which that you need to be able to make the decisions. They also understand that because of speed often mistakes will occur as long as we collectively agree we made decisions decisively with efficiency with good intention. Let's iterate along the way. And again, at this level of speed, it's hard to, you know Right. Get ten out of ten things right. You're not going to. Right. Like you're not going to. Right. If you can start from a base position, remember when I said earlier like this is a group of people that I want to be around. Right. Moral, ethical Right. Like if you start Foundational Right. Foundational position foundational pieces are in place. Layer on top of that, we have data that we can look at to make decisions and to form opinions and to take bets. Layer on top of that an organizational construct that says, that is your job. It is not a nice to have. Yeah. I pay you to take a position and make a bet. And if you screw it up, by the way, you're going to screw it up, spoiler alert, if you screw it up, it's not gonna be fun. Yeah. But it's not gonna be fatal. Yeah. Like, we're gonna learn from it, we're gonna tweak it and then we're gonna move on. Yeah. I mean, thanks for saying it like that. I think a lot of people listening, you know, will appreciate your experience in, you know, it's not gonna be fun but it's not gonna be fatal. Right. Right? And I think a lot of people sometimes get so paralyzed in their inability to make a decision, even executives probably at times A hundred percent. But but mid level management, right, like, don't I don't know what to do and it's like, listen, you know, we need to make a decision. It's not gonna be fun if we're wrong but, you know, at the end of the day, it's We're gonna make payroll. Yeah. You're you're gonna be okay. We're gonna be We're be fine. Be We need to move forward at at the pace of I grew up a reformed Catholic. I was very bad at it. But one of the things that has stuck with me on that is like sins of omission and sins of commission. Right? Sins of omission are death. Sins of commission, we can deal with. Yeah. Like, can deal with. You make a mistake doing something Forgivable. I can deal with that. Yeah. You make a mistake because you were afraid to do something, I can't deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. That that's more of an emotional calibration that you probably fix. And it's fix. It's incredibly hard to change that orientation. And it's paralyzing. It's paralyzing. It's infectious. Other people start to respond to Talk to it if you will. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Sins of commission, you've made a mistake. You screwed up. Yeah. It's gonna be Don't take it personal. Keep moving. It's gonna be a tough couple weeks while we dig out from this and like I get to make fun of you now. Yeah. Don't spiral. But come on. Yeah. Back on the horse. Yeah. Well, that's a so so obviously having a fresh pair of eyes for you in this industry as we go forward, we've talked about a lot of great things here today. Where do you see opportunity for Grace Hill? Really and ultimately the question is where do see opportunity for Multifamily Real Estate to leverage, you know, this type of technology going forward and and serve its customers ultimately? So the problem with the second one, I think, is everywhere. Right? There are opportunities everywhere. If I think about it very specifically from a Grace Hill lens, I think utilizing some of these technologies for making employees much more effective. Like you can just think about very basic things around how can I throw off a training signal based on how an employee interacts with a potential resident or a potential prospect? Hey, I heard this, I saw this in a survey, I saw this in a mystery shop. Have that fire off an immediate alert around a training opportunity, a skill opportunity, a development opportunity, etcetera. I mean, incredibly basic. Right. Incredibly powerful. Right? Incredibly powerful. But how that employee can then get much better at how they interact with prospects or potential leases and all that kind of wonderful stuff. For Grace Hill, I think the opportunity is how do we simplify some of the things that we are doing To focus on a more core value proposition around that again, what are we trying to solve for? At the end of the day, what we're trying to solve for is we're trying to drive NOI. Right? We're trying to drive NOI for property managers, investors, and employees, and all those folks. Trying to do that based on this mass of technologies that we have. But at the end of the day, it really comes down to are we helping the employee Become more efficient, become more confident, become more confident. Yeah. Are we helping the employee and ultimately is the employee able to help the the the end user, right, the customer? Which then is the biggest lever for those folks in driving NOI. Yeah. Makes total sense. Well, this has been fun. I I got a couple a couple final questions, kind of a this or that that I'll ask you. You're a decisive guy so I don't think you're gonna take much time on on many of these. This is gonna be terrible. Get you. But these are easy. They're not as controversial as as maybe we've done in the past. Coffee or tea? Coffee. Coffee. Coffee. Bizarre book. Early bird or Night Owl? Early bird. Favorite book? Too many to count. If you get a if you put one gun in my head, East of Eden. Favorite book? Power of One by Bryce Courtney. Favorite podcast? The rest is history. This is a fun one. Most most used AI tool. You a cloud guy or It's gonna sound weird. Change over time. Right now, whoop. Whoop. Yep. Has a conversational agentic AI So you're talking to it and it's I am talking to it and it is telling me all of the things that I'm doing wrong in the last eighteen days, seventeen days. This question says one word to describe the future of Grace Hill but I'll I'll give you five words. Describe the future of Grace Hill in five words? And a phrase. My marketing team by the way is gonna love this because this is what I've been kicking their ass on over the last seventeen days. We're succinct. We're bringing it together. You know what? It's hardest thing in the world to do is simple. Say it one word. I'll give you one phrase. One sentence. The future of Grace Hill. The future of Grace Hill, I think, is unwritten and exciting. Well said. Is that five words or less? Somewhere in there. I think it's three. One word, right? Andexcena. Unwritten andexcena. I'm looking at people who say words. Nice meeting you. It was really nice meeting on the show. Appreciate it. Awesome.